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Living in the Body: What General Assembly Called Us To Be and To Do
A Plenary Dialogue between Cynthia M. Campbell, President, McCormick Theological Seminary, and Douglas A. Nave, Esq., Member of Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church, New York at the Covenant Network Annual Conference - 2006, Broad Street Presbyterian Church, Columbus, Ohio
November 10, 2006
Question:
Some sessions have brought motions that presbyteries should not allow any scruples concerning G-6.0106b for candidates for ordination. What suggestion do you have for opposing this motion?
Cynthia
I’m going to toss that back over to Doug, because I must say, I find this immensely perplexing. I frankly don’t understand how it could be legal for a presbytery to say in advance that no one may disagree or have a principled objection to something. Now maybe there’s something about the polity, which is essentially what’s being said by an action like that.
The ones I’ve seen are even stronger; there are a couple of presbyteries that have affirmed statements saying they will not allow anyone to state any scruples about anything. I find this frankly incredible, a misunderstanding of what it means to be Presbyterian, which is to respect, in a give-and-take, the way in which we understand ourselves to fit within a Book of Confessions. That’s why we have a Book of Confessions and not just the Westminster Standards. In fact, we draw a wide circle, or an arc of a tradition, not a laundry list of specifics. That places the judgment, in the discussion between a governing body and an individual, on how that person’s views fit within that arc, or that trajectory, of the interpretation of the Christian faith. To say up front that no one may have any disagreements seems to me to be somehow out of sorts with the whole nature of our tradition.
Then again, I could be wrong about that. There are probably better polity people here than I, so let’s let you answer that.
Doug
I think it’s a perfect answer, I really do. I think what General Assembly did is remind us what it is to be Presbyterians. It wasn’t about gays, it was about Presbyterians. We’ve got to go back to the “forgotten four” – recommendations 1, 2, 3, 4, now “strong urgings” from GA 1, 2, 3, 4 – about how we live together as Presbyterians.
You know, there are lots of Christian communions in the world, and not all of them have our system of collective discernment with respect for conscience. If you want to have very, very clear rules, there are Christian fellowships that offer those. We don’t. What we offer is the ability of faithful Presbyterians to come together and to grapple seriously with their consciences and with collective discernment to try to find the way forward as the Holy Spirit leads us into a continuing understanding of what we’re supposed to be and to do.
One of the things that GA did, that didn’t get much press, but really was wonderful – you know, we talk about ourselves as “Ecclesia reformata, semper reformanda,” which is Latin, and it’s translated in our Book of Order as “The church reformed, always reforming.” It’s our tradition, or we’d all be Roman Catholics. The church reformed, always reforming. General Assembly this year said that’s not the right translation. In the next edition of the Book of Order you’ll see a footnote that says what those words really mean is that the church is always “being” reformed. We don’t reform because we choose to; we reform because the Holy Spirit reforms us. It’s these processes where we come together and act like true Presbyterians, grappling with questions of what scripture really means, what our confessional heritage really means, what we’re learning from our lives as faithful Presbyterians together, that allow us to be “Ecclesia reformata, semper reformanda.”
Question:
This is along those lines. How can we dialogue with people who don’t even agree with the process of the first four parts of the Task Force report on the basis of the Task Force not using Robert’s Rules of Order for decision-making?
Cynthia
Well, let’s remember that all the Task Force did was to suggest was that maybe, occasionally, a governing body might want to consider having a conversation about something in a way other than the American version of Robert’s Rules of Order.
Now, I’m the moderator of a faculty. I thought sessions were interesting. There’s no rotation in faculties, we’re just there forever. We don’t ever move to a formal voting session unless I sense that we’ve gotten to a place where we really need to slow down and make sure we can hear a variety of sides before we make a decision. Most of the time what we do is work through something until it’s clear that we’re satisfied with it. Now, this sometimes takes awhile. But it’s perfectly effective, and it’s not illegal as long as eventually we note that these actions have been taken. That’s essentially what the Task Force recommended might be considered sometimes. I think it’s important to just go back and say what this means, as we engage in that conversation.
Doug
One of the great things you might like to read, I strongly recommend you read it, is a paper that was prepared for the Task Force by Stacy Johnson, a professor at Princeton Seminary; it’s on the Task Force website. It’s about the different views people in the church have adopted over time about homosexuality, and there were seven. Interesting: this is not a black-and-white question. Seven different views that faithful Presbyterians and Christians hold about same-sex relationships – from the strict “prohibitionist” to the “celebrationist,” or something, I forget the precise words he used – faithful Presbyterians all.
What the Task Force members learned in their life together, from the far right to the far left, was that they had the important things in common. They believed in Jesus Christ. They issued a theological reflection that they urged people to study; that’s forgotten Recommendation Two. If we come together and we start talking about the important things we have in common, that can provide groundwork for discussion of the things we don’t necessarily agree about, but that we can help each other understand.
It seems to me that the biggest impediment here is the fear, it’s “We have to do something, let’s pass a statement outlawing scruples or something.” And by the way, folks, we’ve done it too. Remember those “statements of dissent”? When G-6.0106b was passed, we had a lot of congregations, even a few presbyteries, who felt they had to say something, and they adopted statements of dissent. Some of them were legal, some of them were found to be illegal, but they had to give witness to what they believed. And we’re seeing that now on the other side. We believe it’s problematic. But perhaps some of this is venting, and people just need time to cool down. We need to give people time to cool down, and then remind each other why we’ve chosen to be Presbyterians in the first place.
Cynthia
If I could follow on to that for a second. I think one of the things that’s going to need to happen, presbytery by presbytery, is for people to sit down with each other, whether it’s the Committee on Ministry or a separate examinations committee, and begin to think through how we will conduct this part of our life together. A lot of you here that I’ve run into have said, “I’m on a COM in my presbytery.” My strong recommendation, what I would urge you to do – rather than take the San Diego Presbytery approach, which is to write a manual of do’s and don’ts, and adopt a set of questions that shall be asked – is rather to take the first four parts of the report, these recommendations that the church has been commended to receive, and to use those within the COM to talk about, “What is it that we share in common, what do we understand together to be the core of our faith? On the basis of that, then, we’re going to go into these conversations with individuals.”
Does this make the work harder? Yes, it does. But I don’t think it is wrong for us to assume that this is an important practice of discernment that we should engage in together, and then be ready to question ourselves: “So where is the mutual forbearance of someone who maybe doesn’t express the faith in all of the ways that I would, but is enough within the family that I can recognize the Reformed faith in that person?”
Question:
Well that sounds good. But someone wants to know, since the PUP Report called for us to move away from battling toward discernment, after all of the discernment aren’t we going to have to re-engage in the battle and then vote?
Cynthia
We don’t know that yet. It depends on what “the battle” means. Will we continue to make decisions? Yes. Can we imagine another way towards the decision rather than battling? That’s what I think the PUP Report asks us to imagine.
Doug
If we do the “forgotten four,” five is irrelevant. If we do the “forgotten four,” five is irrelevant and we don’t have to have the fight, because we’ve learned how to live with each other and we’ve grown in a new appreciation of all the commonalities we share, and we respect and trust each other enough to respect and trust each other’s ordination decisions.
I don’t want to be misunderstood. That’s not to say that we don’t at some point want to change our standards. We do. I think that a big part of the church thinks our standard is wrong. But we’ve been fighting legislatively for thirty years, playing Capture the Flag, and so far there’s just a lot of blood on the floor. This is an invitation to say, maybe if we do the “forgotten four,” next time we’ll have a parade instead of a fight, and we will see a common truth about what our standards should be.
Question:
Since the Book of Order states that church members and officers differ only in function, does prohibition of GLBT persons for ordination imply prohibition of GLBT persons as members?
Doug
No, no –
Cynthia
No!
Doug
– and no! First of all, GLBT people are not prohibited from serving in ministry. That’s what we keep asking people to remember, and it’s so hard for folks to really let that sink in. We do not prohibit people from serving in any office of the church on the basis of orientation. Our rules relate only to practice. And when it comes to membership, our Book of Order says that everyone can be a member on the basis of their statement of faith alone. Now give something better, but that’s the legal answer.
Cynthia
Section G-4.0403 of the Book of Order says that: “The Presbyterian Church shall give full expression to the rich diversity within its membership” – and we wish it was greater – “and shall provide means which will assure a greater inclusiveness leading to wholeness in its emerging life. Persons of all racial ethnic groups, different ages, both sexes, various disabilities, diverse geographical areas, different theological positions consistent with the Reformed tradition, as well as different marital conditions (married, single, widowed, or divorced) shall be guaranteed full participation and access to representation in the decision making of the church.”
Now that’s one of those interesting points of tension – how does that piece of the constitution shape and inform our practices of ordination? That is the tension within which we live as a church.
Question:
Some people contend that being a practicing gay or lesbian person is in opposition to “a demonstration of a Christian lifestyle,” and they don’t even use G-6.0106b to come up with their condemnation. How does one respond to the question of what a demonstration of a Christian lifestyle looks like?
Cynthia
I think one looks among other things to some of the definitions that Paul uses of the fruits of the Spirit: patience, self-control, kindness. One looks to the model of Christ’s life of welcome and of service. One looks to words such as the exhortation to do justice and to love kindness or mercy, and to walk humbly with God. One looks to Paul’s statement that love does no wrong to the neighbor, and therefore it’s love that is the fulfillment of the law. And then one asks, how does my life interact with those kinds of fruits? How does my life give witness, give evidence of that? The answer for all of us to that is, by the grace of God, better some days than others, and for all of us, never completely, because that’s the nature of our human life. Christian discipleship, if it’s anything, is the prayer that our lives continue to be conformed to those values, rather than an assumption that the only time you can be an ordained officer is once you’ve achieved all of them, or some level of perfection.
Question:
A colleague of mine, a gay pastor, took his life last week after a TV reporter planned to expose him. I’ve wondered awhile now about coming out on the floor of presbytery to be honest about who I am and what and whose I am. Is now the time to stand up and call light to the dark and poisonous atmosphere that continues to devastate even the gifted faithful?
Doug
Well. That will be a question that has to be answered by every person in their conscience, given their context and what they want to accomplish.
You see this when you counsel people about their upcoming examinations for office. Sometimes they say, “I simply want to serve the church. Why are they talking about sex? I don’t want to have that conversation, I don’t want to talk about my relationship with my partner, I want to talk about my relationship with Jesus Christ.” Our rules allow people to decide not to self-acknowledge practice, and some decide to do that. There are others who say, “It is important to change this injustice and error” – and you can add twenty words, it’s a horrible, horrible misunderstanding in the church – “and the way you change that is to witness, so I’m going to go to the presbytery with this.” And we had a case of a gentleman who did that, who said, “I’m not in a relationship today, but I intend to participate in a fully human, sexual relationship in my ministry.” Or there are people who go and say, “Yes, I’m in that kind of a relationship today.” Their call is to witness in that way. And there are lots of things in between.
One of the things that we progressive groups consistently try to live out in our lives together – More Light, TAMFS, Covenant Network, Witherspoon, all of the groups that are working to make the church more inclusive – is to respect the many different choices that different people make within their own contexts and with their own calls. That kind of respect is very important. Sometimes you see some tensions between the groups about whether all strategies work at General Assembly. That’s a legitimate question to ask. But I don’t think there can be any question, when you’re talking about individuals’ witness, that there is no one answer, there’s no one straitjacket. There are many, many ways to be a faithful witness to your life and experience and call.
Question:
I was on the ordination track in the Presbyterian Church. While I was in seminary, I began my coming-out process while discerning my call. I grew tired of leading a double life, so I’ve recently left the denomination and am now under care in the United Church of Christ for ordination as a minister. When I speak with GLBT people who are considering entering seminary, they ask me if they should do this under care of the PC(USA). I tell them that is up to them, but that the PC(USA) is not a denomination that is open to GLBT people serving in leadership. Why would a GLBT person want to go through the burden of ordination in the PC(USA)?
Doug
I think the short answer is because the Presbyterian Church desperately needs faithful witnesses. We call ourselves Christians because Jesus Christ took the hard way, not the easy way. He wasn’t exactly welcomed with open arms in his own religious establishment; he was considered a heretic and he was killed for it. We Christians today believe that ministers are often called to follow the way of the cross. The question again comes back to how you think you can best minister to a hurting church and a hurting world. Some will believe that they can best witness by righting this wrong, by witnessing on this issue, even if it means that they will not be ordained in the Presbyterian Church (USA). There are others who believe that they can best minister to a hurting church and a hurting world by using the process to become ministers and then witnessing from the inside, to help grow a loving, better, more just understanding of grace and the gospel, which is frankly what this whole misunderstanding is about.
Philip Yancey wrote a great book – he’s more conservative than I am, but he wrote a book whose title I love: it was What’s So Amazing About Grace? Wonderful title. Ultimately, I think we can address the gay/lesbian issues in this church by addressing the gospel, because if the church really understands grace and the gospel, we won’t be able to exclude gay and lesbian people the way we do today.
There are a lot of different choices as to how you can minister. Some will feel compelled or called to follow the way of the cross, knowing they make a witness and probably won’t be ministers in the PC(USA) but then may move to the UCC or to other life calls. Every person has to figure out how they’re called and how they can best serve the gospel.
Cynthia
I want just to add on a word to that, to take it another step. We’ve spent a number of years worried about a lack of, especially, younger people feeling a call to ordained service in the life of mainline churches in general, the Presbyterian Church in particular. A lot of us have spent a lot of time and enlisted a lot of help from people like you, identifying young adults with the gifts and graces for ministry and getting them into seminary and supporting them. I spend a lot of time with these people. I am frankly amazed at the talent and energy that is coming into the life of the Presbyterian Church from young adults who have been lured by God and the voice of the church and people like you into considering ministry. They are terrified, as we speak – straight, gay, whatever – they’re terrified of what they’re going to face in presbyteries.
One of the things we need to go home and think about is whether or not we want the beginning of ministry for some of our brightest and best to be a terrorizing experience, or whether we want it to be part of their discernment along with us and their growth in faith. I think most of us here would like to say that in fact our faith and our theological judgment have grown over the life of our ministry from when we were ordained. It’s the sign that there is a God. I’m not where I was theologically thirty years ago, and I’ll bet a lot of the rest of you aren’t either. It’s part of our job to discern and to deal gently with those in whom we have invested a lot of time and energy. That doesn’t mean that we don’t hold people to high and important standards. But it does mean that we want to recognize that we have people of very, very good will who are offering themselves to us, for our future, and to walk with them through this incredibly important time in their leadership.
Thank you.